kmcculleyI know people will question Lampard, saying he's past it. Well, I chose him because I needed someone to play with Wilshere, and Lampard definitely would play with him better than Gerrard. Also, last season Lampard was injured and Chelsea were terrible, and then he came back and they were better. I know he'll be a year older, but unless Henderson becomes great, he's my choice.

Obviously the argument could be made to play Cole at leftback, but I like Baines just as much. Glen Johnson or Martin Kelly at rightback would work well.

This side is made for speed. Against the likes of Spain who like to hog possession, the only way to create chances is also to play a possession game or have players like Lennon and Walcott who are faster than everyone. Obviously in the long term, you hope England develop a possession style, but there isn't time for that in a year. So you go for the speed.

Thoughts?

20.07.2011

david1993walcott might not be good enough as he himself say he is not a winger he is a striker i think adam johnson is underrated and ashley young is better than lennon and so is downing

20.07.2011

mbillington10I have noticed recently, that Ashley Cole hasn't attacked with the same danger that he used to. Perhaps he is playing with an injury, or has lost some pace. I think defensively, he is the best left back available to England at the moment, and looks more comfortable than Baines has done, although his form for Everton has been fantastic.

I think the Terry-Ferdinand axis is England's strongest, although with Ferdinand's injury problems I would probably also go with Jagielka for his pace, mobility, and better passing than other candidates (Cahill, Dawson).

I would prefer to see England play with inverted wingers, using Gerrard on the left and giving him the freedom to drift inside and link play, as well as being much closer to goal and thus posing more of an attacking threat.

This is what my team would be...



Hopefully this would retain defensive solidity, whilst also being fluid enough to ensure good possession play.

20.07.2011

kmcculleydavid 1993, i agree that johnson and downing are probably better wingers than walcott and lennon. however, im going for speed. the only way to beat a possession team like spain is either to play ultra-defensive (which i think england can do) or to run past their backline (ie walcott v barca in 2010). lennon and walcott, while not great crossers of the ball, are two of the fastest players in the world. the likes of sergio ramos and nacho monreal wouldn't be able to cope with them. to make up for the lack of crossing ability, i've put in baines who is the best crosser of the ball in england.

20.07.2011

kmcculleymbillington10, we saw how carrick did against barca in may. he can't cope with constant pressure. parker might be able to so i would consider him but it's not guaranteed that he'll be playing in the prem this season so he might not be up to speed by the euros. neither gerrard is not quick enough to play effectively on the wing against the top teams so i'd relegate him to the bench.

20.07.2011

paadfoot

Well, I think that Terry-Ferdinand is one of the best defenses in the world. I also think that Ashley Cole is still the best left-back.

If Carrick continues to improve this season like he has on the second half of last season, he must be in the starting 11. Playing with Wilshere-Gerrard is better than Wilshere-Lampard, mostly because I find Gerrard better than Lampard.

Many attacking options with Rooney down the wing, and the right wing with Downing/Walcott/Lennon. Capello could also play an extra winger in for Carroll, and then Rooney would be the striker, but I believe that the offensive power provided by Andy Carroll is essencial for England.

20.07.2011

mojojojo101Who are England's best players; Rooney, Ferdinand, Cole, Wilshire ... what we need to do is exploit these players qualities at club level to get the MOST out of as many of them as possible.

This would be my formation:

Rooney - Has played some of his best football recently playing off a poacher and given plenty of freedom to both create and get into goalscoring positions himself, Bent is a similair player to Hernandez and has a good scoring record at all levels. The wide players of Lennon and Young replicate a similair system to the Nani/Valencia system that Rooney has done so well with at United in the last half of last season.
Cole - Needs to be given space and freedom to venture forward and using Young who will naturally drift inside to allow him forward will play into his strenght.
Wilshire - he needs to be given freedom to drive from a deep position into the final third, the use of Carrick as a holding midfielder gives the likes of Wilshire and Cole much more lisence to stride forward.
Carrick - As far as ball retention goes there is no better English player at the moment, it's something that England have always struggled with yet have never really taken Carrick seriously, he also has some of the best positional sense in England in my opinion.
Richards - I chose him over Johnson simply because I don't trust Johnson, he tries to cut inside and score too many times when his job as a full back should be to stick as close to the touchline and provide as much width as possible, Richards came on leaps and bounds last season and I expect that he will do so again next season as well.

20.07.2011

mojojojo101

20.07.2011

mojojojo101<a href = "http://this11.com"><img src = border = "0" alt = "football formations"/></a>

sorry for multiple posts, image wouldn't post :(

20.07.2011

mbillington10kmcculley your comments are Carrick are unfair. You say 'we say against Barcelona', well if that is your criteria, we would also have to drop Rooney and Ferdinand, and every other player who has struggled against Barcelona's high tempo pressure. Ferguson decided that intelligent use of possession was a better way to compete with Barcelona, so he went with Giggs and Carrick, rather than Fletcher or Anderson. I was hoping Parker would be more of a ball winner and allow Carrick the freedom to pass like he does so well for Manchester United, as he isn't as effective when he is the lone holding player.

If you think that speed is the only way to beat Barcelona, you're being incredibly naive. They face fast wingers every week. In order to counter this they practice in training Busquets dropping in as a third centre back to allow Puyol and Pique to charge down and close threats down the wing. Your Walcott example is out of context, when he came on as sub in the first leg a couple of years ago, he was still relatively unknown in Spain, and Barcelona were unaware of just how quick he was. Then in the second leg, they defended slightly deeper, asked Valdes to sweep up Fabregas' through passes and negated his threat. It's so easy to defend against pacey players, you just drop deep and then they offer no threat. Fast wingers are often inept at crossing because they are used to travelling at such a high speed with the ball that its impossible to get an accurate cross. Look at some of the most effective wingers in the game today. Kuyt, Iniesta, Ozil, David Silva, Nasri... then look at Lennon, Walcott, Quaresma. The pacey players are nowhere near as effective. You are overvaluing pace hugely, and as a result, you are really undervaluing Barcelona/Spain's ability to defend. The idea that Ramos would crumble against a fast winger is so far removed from reality.

Not sure you appreciate Gerrard's value as a winger either. Ok, he can't run the 100m like Usain Bolt, but he doesn't have to, he's a footballer. He scored over 20goals for liverpool from the wing, and was arguably England's best performer at the world cup and scored a couple of goals playing on the left with the freedom to drift inside and link with Rooney. He could play a similar role to David Villa's for Barcelona.

The three teams that beat Barcelona in the league this year, all played a 4-2-3-1 formation, and pressed Barcelona high up the pitch to interrupt their passing, as Michael Cox has pointed out. It was nothing to do with picking the fastest 11 players in the squad (something that may work on FIFA, but is easily countered by top teams in reality), it was about tailoring the formation to attack the opposition's weaknesses, and then playing intelligently, not simply giving it to roadrunner and telling him to take on the entire Spain team.

The problem I have with playing Carroll is that Terry and Ferdinand will just spend the game lumping it forward to him, as they do with Crouch. I know Wilshere plays deeper for Arsenal, but he is the only player England have that is capable of linking defence and attack effectively. Rooney can sometimes, but it is not his natural game as we saw against Barcelona. Wilshere's qualities as a midfielder make him more suited to link the play.

20.07.2011

kmcculleyMbillington10, in response to your first paragraph: Did you watch the final? The only players for United that had good matches were Rooney and Ferdinand. Rooney was lively throughout and Ferdinand kept Messi relatively quiet. Despite the media glorification of otherwise, Messi wasn’t great. His goal came off of a mistake from Vidic and he didn’t really create any chances. Also, I don’t think Ferguson’s decision to play Giggs and Carrick central had to do with ‘intelligent possession’ (whatever that means) as much as it did Fletcher not being fully fit and Anderson not being good.
In response to your second paragraph: If you think that Barca play fast wingers every week, then you clearly don’t watch Barca (also I don’t know where you get this thing about dropping Busquets as the third cb in training. Do you watch them train?). Out of the 19 teams they play in La Liga, only Villarreal and Valencia have wingers that can outrun Alves and Abidal with the ball. Marcelo and Di Maria are also fast, but not so much with the ball. I also don’t think you can use their performance in La Liga as a barometer, as it is such a pathetic league. Also, about Walcott, again you’re simply wrong. If you watched the second leg, he ran riot early on, getting behind Abidal and creating chances. He only became ineffective and was substituted because Fabregas was playing extremely poorly. Also out of the five ‘effective wingers’ you list, only two of them (Kuyt and Nasri) played regularly on the wing last season and none of them are natural wingers. Kuyt plays wide because while Torres was there, he wasn’t good enough to play striker and if Nasri stays at Arsenal, it’ll be because he gets the central role he craves. In fact, Nasri had his excellent first half of the season playing central while Fabregas was out and played poorly in the second half when he played wider. Also, if you honestly believe that Ramos and Pique are good defenders, then there is no point talking to you. The reason Spain/Barcelona don’t concede goals isn’t because they have great defenders, it’s because they always have the ball. Statistically, the percentage of chances created that are converted against Barcelona is very high. Do you think Ferguson would have sold Pique if he was such a great defender? Obviously not; Pique is a player who needs to play in a system.
In response to your third paragraph: As a lifelong Liverpool supporter, I assure you Gerrard never scored over 20 goals for us playing as a winger. His best position is playing behind the striker, playing Hollywood passes to the winger, slide rule passes to the striker, and dashing belatedly into the box to smash them home. He could NEVER play a similar role to David Villa. I love Stevie, but his best position is taken by Rooney and I’m not convinced he could play with Wilshere.

The three teams that beat Barcelona in the league this year, all played a 4-2-3-1 formation, and pressed Barcelona high up the pitch to interrupt their passing, as Michael Cox has pointed out. It was nothing to do with picking the fastest 11 players in the squad (something that may work on FIFA, but is easily countered by top teams in reality), it was about tailoring the formation to attack the opposition's weaknesses, and then playing intelligently, not simply giving it to roadrunner and telling him to take on the entire Spain team.
Finally, while teams that pressed high up did play wekk against Barca (ie Almeria, Sevilla, Espanyol), I assure you that Hercules (one of the teams that beat them) did not do this. And don’t you think having quick players is good for pressing? Logically they’ll be able to close down the ball quicker. Barca press with Villa, Pedro, Messi, and Iniesta, who are all very quick. So logically Lennon and Walcott are good for this.

21.07.2011

kmcculleymojojojo101, your formation isn't appearing.

21.07.2011

nvrmojojojo, just use the "raw link".

others, are you aware that once an English player pulls on that shirt in June, he suddenly starts to play two notches down from his usual performance. As if weights are tied to his legs and he was whipped to run...So, your formations should be inspired by Sporting Gijon against Barcelona, rather than Barcelona. The quality difference will be that big.

21.07.2011

mbillington10kmcculley, I just don't know where to start. If you think that Messi wasn't great in the Champions League final then there is no hope for you. He might not have got the ball and dribbled past every player using his pace like Walcott or Lennon regularly do, but most football fans would agree he was pretty outstanding. 'Intelligent possession' means passing the ball horizontally, rather than vertically, its about retaining possession and drawing the opposition out of position with short sideways passes as oppose to playing long balls forward where the opposition can win the ball back and attack you as soon as you have won the ball back. Of course this is why Ferguson went with Giggs and Carrick, because against Schalke Man Utd enjoyed the most possession out of all the champions league games that season, and the reason was Carrick and Giggs are better passers than Fletcher or Anderson. Fletcher was fit enough to start the final, maybe not play the full 90 minutes, but he was definately fit enough to play if Ferguson wanted him to.

If you don't accept that Barcelona work on Busquets dropping as a third centre back so that Puyol and Pique can close down counter attacks, then you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't need to watch them train, I read the articles of people like Sid Lowe, Jonathon Wilson, and Michael Cox (all of whom do watch Barcelona train) and then you can see them do it in the match.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09/20/atletico-madrid-1-2-barcelona-busquets-takes-modern-centre-half-role-a-little-further/

You don't think Barcelona play faster wingers every week then... so I guess Ronaldo, Di Maria, Reyes, Perotti, Jaoquin, Capel, Adrian and Kiko are all slow then? Exactly how fast do you have to be do qualify as a fast winger?

Interesting you use Villareal as your example for wingers. If you watched them play you would know that they play a unique 4-2-2-2 formation, where the wingers run inside when they get the ball.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/03/07/atletico-3-1-villarreal-tactics/

La Liga a 'pathetic league', you must be joking, right? Just because it is dominated by two incredible teams doesn't make it a pathetic league.

I'll have to disagree with you on Walcott... you believe he 'ran riot' against barcelona, even though Bacelona beat them convincingly, and Walcott was substituted. So you think Wenger substituted a player who was running Barcelona riot?

The wingers I listed do play regularly on the wing, its just that the role has changed in recent years and they are expected to cut inside and play centrally, primarily because traditional wingers are not as effective in todays game.

I'm not going to entertain your comments on Pique and Ramos, perhaps you should send Barcelona or Real a video clip of yourself playing, given that anyone can play in Barcelona's system. You must be the only football watching person in the entire world who doesn't think Pique and Ramos are good defenders. Ferguson sold Jaap Stam, was he not a good defender then?

You may be a lifelong Liverpool supporter, but if you think Gerrard has never played on the wing, you must have been asleep for the 2005/2006 season, rafa's second season in charge when he played the entire season on right midfield and scored 23 goals (sissoko and alonso played in the centre, with kewell on the left when he was fit, and luis garcia played up top with crouch). I should know, I was there, having been a season ticket holder for the last 9 years. It was only in 07/08 that Benitez moved him behind Torres.

If you were watching Liverpool this season, you would know that Maxi scored 11 goals last season, including two hattricks, despite being one of Liverpool's slowest players. Meanwhile, the fastest player on Liverpool's team even when torres was at the club was Ryan Babel (according to the sprint test they did in training, which torres revealed in an interview on lfc tv about a year ago), and Babel hardly ever scored. It's not about pace at all, its about quality.

You might be right that Gerrard can't play the Villa role, but why exactly is it that you think this? And why could he not play with Wilshere?

NVR makes the best point though, England players do not perform for the national team anyway, but he is also right that quality is the big difference.

21.07.2011

kmcculleymbillington10, I'm going to give a few comments because I think that behind your butchery of the English language, you possess some intelligence. First off, drop the Manchester United comparison because they aren't a possession team. They hardly dominate possession in matches against Spurs so obviously they didn't go into the final looking to outpossess Barca. As for your fast wingers, Ronaldo is fast but he didn't really play on the wing against Barca. Di Maria like I said is fast but can't outrun Alves with the ball. Reyes and Perotti are fast, but the rest are definitely not. Joaquin, really? As for your Michael Cox obsession, sorry to break it to you but he's not smart. He may have you fooled because he features on ESPN and has some fancy charts, but read his articles, they have no depth. Please don't bring him up again. About Pique, if you watch Barca you'd know he constantly gets caught out. He has little positional awareness. And yes, Ferguson sold Stam because at the time he was questionable. He had suffered injuries and at 29 he didn't have his future ahead of him. Pique was 21 when he was sold. Also, yes, La Liga is pathetic because of the reason you point out: there are only two teams. As for your faulty memories of the 2005-6 season when you were supposedly a season ticket holder (don't think having season tickets for eight years makes you an expert or is relevant to bring up), Gerrard was never a winger. He played right but he was never getting chalk on his boots like a Kewell. That's what I am going for in my team. I don't think he can play with Wilshere because he's not great at playing short passes and he's not very patient. He can't play the Villa role because he's not quick enough on the turn. Finally, never bring up Maxi Rodriguez or Babel again. Maxi's hattricks weren't exactly masterful, and while Babel was fast, he was simply a bad player so he could do nothing with his speed. Regardless, are you really using Maxi as your example of a classy player?

21.07.2011

kmcculleymbillington10, just looked this up. for the 2005-6 season gerrard was named to epl team of the season in a central role....so, yeah, great memory you have of him playing on the wing.

21.07.2011

mojojojo101This is the formation I meant to post:



In my opinion would get the best out of the best players in the squad

21.07.2011

mbillington10This is getting petty and pedantic, so I'm going to ignore some of your comments. I can't find much common ground for reasonable discussion which is dissappointing.

I misinterpreted what you were going when you referred to 'wingers'. You didn't mean players who play on the wing, you meant traditional, Stanley Matthews/George Best, type of player who stays as close to the touchline as possible. I can see now, you wanted Lennon and Walcott to stay as close to the touchline and play on the counter attack. I do see what you are going for, just don't agree that it is the way forward for the English national team.

Gerrard was also named as a central midfielder for the team of the season 2007-08 when he played behind torres, where the premier league executives put him in the team of the season isn't the most accurate reflection of his position. It's not a memory, its a fact, any liverpool fan who went to the games knows, its obvious from your discourse that you didn't watch many games from that season, which suggests you are younger. You cannot deny that Sissoko and Alonso played in centre midfield together in most games, indeed, you accept that he played right, but then to try to argue that he wasn't on the wing is pretty confusing.

You criticise Michael Cox for 'lacking depth', which is difficult to accept, especially when you say Gerrard can't play with Wilshere because he's not great at playing short passes. You are implying that the captain of one of the most successful clubs of all time, England international, and one of the best players of his generation isn't good at passing it short? I think you're on your own there, as you are in thinking that Pique and Ramos are clueless at defending.

I'm not allowed to mention Maxi Rodriguez, an Argentina international who has played in two of the world's top leagues because he lacks class. I don't think that is reasonable.


You say Manchester United don't dominate possession , but they had the third best possession stats in the premier league last season? And because Ronaldo 'didn't really play on the wing against Barcelona', in one game, I can't use him as an example of a fast winger Barcelona faced. Mourinho and Guardiola apparently both pick defenders who are useless at defending, despite having one of the best defensive records in the league and Champions league? One of the most respected journalists in the world is really fooling people, and is actually clueless. Gerrard played on the right, but didn't go near the wing. If Ferguson sells a player that automatically makes him inept. Messi wasn't great in the match where his team won the greatest club competition in the world, despite being his team's focal point. La Liga is no higher a standard of competition than the scottish league. And the only way to beat Barcelona/Spain is to outrun them?

This is far removed from what I intended when orginally commenting. I was trying to show that pace alone will not enable you to beat a team as good as Barcelona or Spain, they work in training on preventing counter attacks (it's a game called 20 seconds). It's difficult when you play ultra defensive to then make the transition to counter attack, unless you have the luxury of someone like Ozil. Despite how niggly this has turned, I do see what you are going for and it is something that I often pondered, whether exceptionally fast wingers could be unplayable. But having watched games in which Walcott and Lennon have played, I just think England have looked better when different wingers such as Adam Johnson and Downing have played. I might be wrong, fast wingers may be the best way. I also appreciate your choice of Baines and Jagielka, brave decision but one that is clearly considered on evidence of last season. I wouldn't like to put people off commenting for being seen as argumentative, I do apologize if I have come across this way.

21.07.2011